Facilitated

6| Bean There, Drank That: Coffee Benefits, Health Effects, and Brewing Secrets

• The Facility Denver • Episode 6

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We break down the science of coffee brewing and consumption, exploring brewing techniques, bean quality, and health considerations while debunking common myths.

• Water quality forms the foundation of good coffee with filtered or spring water delivering superior flavor and health benefits
• Brewing methods significantly impact both taste and health effects – French press raises LDL cholesterol while pour-over removes problematic compounds
• Temperature precision (195-205°F) optimizes extraction while minimizing bitter notes and harmful byproducts
• Bean sourcing matters with conventional coffee containing high pesticide residues and potential mycotoxin contamination
• Organic certification provides assurance but is prohibitively expensive for many small producers who may still use organic methods
• Roasting temperature creates a "sweet spot" where antioxidants are maximized while harmful compounds are minimized
• Caffeine metabolism varies genetically with some people processing it quickly while others experience prolonged effects
• Following "coffee rules" (waiting 45+ minutes after waking, hydrating first, eating something) transforms coffee from a crutch to a performance enhancer

Our challenge for you: delay your coffee by an hour from when you normally drink it, see how you feel, and evaluate your brew methods and bean sourcing.

NOTES + PRODUCTS RECOMMENDED -- thefacilitydenver.com

Want to take the next step with functional medicine? Learn more about our new patient process and lab testing at www.thefacilitydenver.com

For more insights, tips, and behind-the-scenes content, follow us on Instagram @thefacilitydenver

Stay curious, stay proactive, and we’ll catch you next time!

Mitchell:

Welcome to Facilitated, where we bring you real stories, strategies and science from the world of functional medicine. I'm Dr Mitchell Rasmussen, a functional medicine practitioner.

Kate:

And I'm Kate Daugherty, a certified nutritionist. We are the owners of the Facility, a functional medicine clinic here in Denver, Colorado.

Mitchell:

We help people improve their biology and get out of their own way. We help people improve their biology and get out of their own way. In my view, our work is about getting to know the person with the condition much more than it's about understanding which condition the person has. As I always say, diagnose the biology, not the disease.

Kate:

On this podcast we break down complex health topics, share real patient cases anonymized, of course and explore cutting-edge wellness strategies so you can make informed decisions about your health. Quick heads up before we dive in this podcast is for education and general information only. We're here to share insights, not to diagnose or treat. So if you're dealing with a health issue, chat with a qualified healthcare provider before making any changes. All right, let's get into it. Welcome back to the studio.

Mitchell:

Good to be here.

Kate:

Today we're going to talk all about coffee, one of our favorite subjects, one of my favorite subjects.

Mitchell:

And I think we get asked a lot about it because people are beginning to wake up to realize how beneficial it can be, but also how detrimental it can be.

Kate:

Benefits and side effects.

Mitchell:

Is that a little prelude to what's coming?

Kate:

I don't know know. We realized we got ahead of ourselves in some of the previous episodes. Where we we were, we were just trying to share a little bit about our lives and we gave too few details and we actually had some people reach out to us. We're not making that up who's lucy but also about our coffee practices, and so light bulb moment, let's's get in here and go into depth about it.

Mitchell:

It's something that most of the Western world drinks. Most people don't think about it. I actually had friends over this weekend and I like to share my whole routine with them, and we cooked out, grilled some steaks, took sulforaphane with the grilled steaks, grilled some steaks, took sulforaphane with the grilled steaks and I had. I forced my friend to let me make him a pour over at like eight o'clock at night and he was blown away. And the next day, yesterday morning, he sent me a picture of his coffee set up and he goes this sucks compared to what I drank last night and I was converted another one to the good tasting coffee world.

Kate:

Mitchell, what's up how you brewing, are you?

Mitchell:

serious God, you've came up with that.

Kate:

I came up with that when it was supposed to be my intro line, but I still wanted to work it in here somewhere.

Mitchell:

You wrote that down. I did yeah, you look down. You read that. I did yeah, you looked down, you read that. That was a plan. Um, I'm brewing pretty well, damn, I don't have a. I was like brewing pretty breville no, it doesn't go, no, okay doing well brewing well? All right, yeah. Um, what are you currently brewing? No, okay, doing well Brewing well? All right, yeah.

Kate:

What are you currently brewing my brew setup? Yeah, I want to hear about yours first.

Mitchell:

Okay.

Kate:

Because yours is better.

Mitchell:

Mine's been years in the making, you know. I think the first thing you've got to consider is your water, I think. Good, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as they say. So you write it. You like that. I didn't even write that down.

Mitchell:

An old photo teacher in high school would always say that If you develop bad film you can never make a good picture. So make sure you have the film developed properly first. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. So water, you know coffee is what 98, 99 water. So that's the main first part. Good filtering or spring water does great, so I make sure to always use filtered water.

Mitchell:

And then I used to do a french press and for years and because I thought it tasted pretty well and I didn't want any plastics to be heated up, like most coffee makers obviously are full of plastic and microplastics lodged in your testicles and your brain, so didn't want that, did that for a while and then I started to become a little more aware of the fact that it was probably raising my LDL a little bit, my LDL cholesterol. We know that there are some diterpenes in unfiltered coffee that can raise that. So I transferred over a couple years ago to a pour-over type setup. I use the Chemex. I like them because it's all glass, very simple, looks good on the counter.

Kate:

Aesthetics.

Mitchell:

Very aesthetic, yeah, aesthetics, very aesthetic. And they make bleach free, chemical free filters so that we have a.

Kate:

We're not getting chlorine from a filter, uh, whitened filter, yeah, I think I bet, yeah, I think it is, and so I do that.

Mitchell:

And then I spent maybe the last 10 years using a hand grinder. And then it was a few months ago. My brother and his wife came out and he said it was borderline cringy, that I have the best beans in the world. I shipped my water from a spring, I use an all glass Pouring system and I used a Chemex, but I used a $5 hand grinder. So then I went down the road Of the conical brewing or the conical burrs For grinders. So I ended up using Fellow, probably because of aesthetics. Let's be honest.

Kate:

They are pretty.

Mitchell:

Yeah, because you got one now.

Kate:

I got one.

Mitchell:

Yeah, you have the black one.

Kate:

I got the black one. They didn't give me a choice.

Mitchell:

Oh, you went. I ordered it from their website. You went into the store and it looks good and they have a nice three-year warranty and the system is made of plastic on the outside, but the actual grinding system is all stainless steel, I think you know, and there's a couple burrs. So they grind a very uniform brew. What I learned from my brother teasing me was inconsistencies in the grind lead to a lot of over or under extraction and that's kind of why maybe two of every five, I'd be like dang, that's a good cup of coffee, and now it's five out of five good cup of coffee yeah, the opus fellow.

Kate:

It's a fellow opus grinder, is that the official name of it. We've both moved to that one. He obviously made his aesthetic choice, my choice. I I read a few reviews went down the rabbit hole. It's a great grinder for that price point. You can spend thousands of dollars on grinders, so really happy for that one for home use.

Mitchell:

Yeah and I'm the guy that watches YouTube videos before I buy tires I want before anything I purchase. I'm going down that rabbit hole. So you know, I liked the price point and the aesthetic but, yeah, I bought it because of the quality of the grind. And then I actually did the nerdy thing and I bought a bunch of coffee that I never drank. I felt very wasteful, but I broke in the grinder. I think that was key. What I like about the Opus is you can have any grind size, from espresso to cold brew, which is pretty rare for a $200 grinder, and I think they cover that gamut pretty well.

Kate:

Not sponsored by Fellow. We should be my gosh, but on that, tell me about your kettle.

Mitchell:

Well then, the little brother gets in your head some more and discusses. Well then, the little brother gets in your head some more and discusses. And you mentioned now that you use a better kettle. Temperature regulation is huge.

Kate:

It's major.

Mitchell:

Yeah, so what I used to do was I would just boil water and then look at it for about 30 seconds and be like it's probably about 200 degrees and then pour it, and then that would be that process the whole time. But yeah, I use the fellow the goose snack. What is it like? A pro studio edition so you can hook wi-fi up to it, which I do not need, that but fun to say, I guess. And that whole system is stainless steel so we're not getting any hot plastic.

Mitchell:

And then the temperature is really tightly controlled. There's two different, like gates or something, so it'll heat up the water almost to your set point and then one of the things turns off, so then it slowly brings up the temperature to what you want and then when you pick it off the stand to pour, it'll cool down a degree or two and that little part of the motor or whatever it is can just heat it up that couple of degrees so it doesn't burn the system out. And then I like it because bring the dogs out for a walk in the morning, come back. It'll hold the water at temperature for up to an hour, based on the settings here's a fun fact water boils at 212 degrees at sea level in Denver it's more like 202 degrees.

Kate:

So I was doing the same thing. I was just using a standard kettle, waiting for it to boil, and then I would eventually get over to it and pour it on my coffee. By the time I was pouring it, it was, I would guess, 10 degrees cooler.

Mitchell:

Yeah, and maybe that's embarrassing that I didn't know that until I bought this grinder. Did you see there's an altitude adjustment.

Kate:

Yeah.

Mitchell:

Yeah, so you set it to your altitude, so the max temp is only at the boiling time for your altitude and living in Denver. Yeah, I was a little embarrassed. I didn't know that because I had the same reflection Like I bet I'm pouring water on these beans at 190 degrees.

Kate:

Yeah, so ideal is 195 to 205 and that's best temperature for extraction of caffeine, the acids, the polyphenols, and really gives you the best taste. So when you're too cold it doesn't fully extract caffeine or antioxidants and you get like a sour or flat flavor. I was noticing that in my own coffee. I was noticing that in my own coffee. If it's too hot then you get over-extraction so degrade some of the antioxidants, increase acrylamides, increase more of the bitterness, the harsh taste to it. So temperature matters.

Mitchell:

Yeah, we'll talk more. I want to talk about roasting temps and I want to get more into those acrylamides, then the gooseneck.

Mitchell:

The other benefit of it is the pore ratio, which this sounds so dorky as I'm saying it out loud, but it was. It was with my little brother when I was back home in Wisconsin. He brought his kettle to my parents' house and could set it at 201. And I thought he was just being a snobby little guy. Well, was love him to death. But he had a point that temperature consistency with a good kettle like that, plus the type of pour, once you have a gooseneck, man, I I think I texted you one night the first time I used it. I said this coffee tastes better and I wanted to, because how much money has been spent on this setup. But it definitely tastes best that way.

Kate:

Well, that precision flow, that circular motion, it prevents channeling.

Mitchell:

You are an expert.

Kate:

I've grown up with coffee, so channeling, what's so channeling? Where you can get? Some of the grinds get oversaturated, some of the grinds don't get saturated enough, and so you get this. Some are over extracted, some are under extracted, so you get this mix of bitterness, sourness. It's just not not a good cup isn't that full-bodied?

Mitchell:

that's a bean thing yeah, not the body you want. Um, interesting, okay, yeah, and I always, with the old kettle, would just kind of stir the beans up. But you're right, that's just shouldn't have to be done.

Kate:

You stir it for the bloom right?

Mitchell:

Well, yeah, you give it, like what? Three times the amount of water of the weight of the beans and let it sit for 30 seconds. It's crazy how much gas comes off of those beans.

Kate:

It's CO2, right yeah. What's your ratio?

Mitchell:

17 to 1. All right, what about you?

Kate:

I had to write it down because I knew you were going to ask me and I don't remember numbers in my head. I keep this sticky note next to my coffee.

Mitchell:

Okay.

Kate:

So I usually do between 15 and 16 grams of coffee, 195 degrees and 250 grams of water 18 to 1. Thank you.

Mitchell:

Is that what it is? I don't know, Well, now I'm embarrassed if I said the wrong number. Get a calculator.

Kate:

We got the calculator out. It's 15 to 1. 15.625.

Mitchell:

Oh, wrong one. I was off on that. Usually I'm pretty good at mental math, Do you find. So that's a pretty low ratio. That's a lot of coffee for the water.

Kate:

I have another confession. Okay, I'm usually using an AeroPress.

Mitchell:

Really.

Kate:

Yeah, I love it, I really do, but you can't make very much at a time. Exactly, I'm drinking one cup of coffee, so I'm making coffee for myself. I'm not doing it every single day. A lot of days I'm drinking espresso using the espresso machine here, so it's only a few times a week, but it makes the best cup of coffee. So an AeroPress is kind of a combination of pour over and French press. It's like a single serve French press. It still has a filter on it. It still has a paper filter on it, though, so you get some of those benefits of pour over, pulling out some of the oils, but some of the pressurization like you get from espresso. So it's kind of this perfect, beautiful marriage in the middle.

Mitchell:

You're not going to like my next question.

Kate:

I know.

Mitchell:

What is the system made out of?

Kate:

Okay, it is polypropylene, so at least it's not polycarbonate. Polycarbonate is the type of plastic that's made from BPA, bps, bpf. It's not perfect.

Mitchell:

You do really well, though that's what we talk about like. Good and perfect are not enemies of one another. I'm still trying to catch my breath, though, knowing that you're brewing in plastic.

Kate:

He's over here judging me, I can feel it.

Mitchell:

Just me. Yeah, well, like you said, you don't do it every day. Yeah, I use. So my ratio would be 40 grams of beans to 680 grams of water, 17 to 1. And then I will actually make two of those, but I use a company beans. That they'll do. Third, calf I think typically a pour over is about 68 to 69 milligrams of caffeine per 100 grams of water, or 100 milliliters whatever, same thing.

Kate:

I know. Yeah, and I learned that when I started using my scale.

Mitchell:

That's the metric system. We learned that in school. Right, One cubic centimeter is one milliliter I don know, don't quiz me on it, okay and I think that much water, so around 1360 grams of water. If it was full cap I think it'd be around 900 milligrams of caffeine, but because it's third, I'm just getting about 300, and I'm 210 pounds, so I sleep great. It doesn't seem to increase agitation or anxiety, so I feel good on that. But the same line. Actually, today just got delivered a five-pound bag of their water process decaf. So I will be taking a full caffeine break, which I do think is important. Calf, so I will be taking a full caffeine break, which I do think is important.

Mitchell:

What I like about the company that I use the purity beans which I'd like to talk more about they're amazing is the way they process their beans to make them decaffeinated is a slow they call it a mountain water process and it actually removes like 99.9% of caffeine, retaining all of those polyphenols and antioxidants, those chlorogenic acids within that. And most caffeine extraction methods are chemical-based I think it's sulfates. I don't know what they're using, but you are definitely retaining some of that. And I would also say most decaf doesn't taste much like coffee. You're kind of like what's the bother the purity beans. It is still a nice, robust cup of coffee.

Kate:

Yeah, you mentioned your caffeine content and absolutely, brew method will change the amount of caffeine, but I think the roasting of beans is a bigger factor in how much caffeine ends up in your cup. What is a myth?

Mitchell:

a lot. How much caffeine ends up in your cup? What is a myth? A lot of people think about roast temperatures and strength of coffee.

Kate:

We talk about that with patients a lot. Yeah, you think darker roast, higher caffeine, but that's not true. It's the opposite Lighter roast is going to have a little bit more caffeine. Which I think is why breakfast blends a lot of times are lighter, roasts Higher caffeine?

Mitchell:

okay, right, but we think a nice robust, dark roast and I would say the flavor, because the beans have been burnt to smithereens. The flavor might be a little deeper, darker, but yeah, it's interesting, it's just think about it. You've cooked this thing longer, so all sorts of compounds have left the building.

Kate:

So let's go back to brew method and caffeine, because we kind of glanced over this. We talked about French press, so, unfiltered, more diterpenes. Then we get drip, pour over aero press, add a filter, removes a few more oils. Both of those have similar caffeine content. Then we have espresso, which is technically unfiltered, but because it's a much smaller volume, you are consuming lower amount of diterpenes, but the high pressure extraction actually increases antioxidants and polyphenols. A lot of people think espresso is more stimulating, more caffeine, but it's really the dose. It's way easier to overdo four shots of espresso than four cups of coffee. So a shot of espresso equivalent generally to a cup of coffee.

Mitchell:

Yeah, I think a shot is like 70 to 80 milligrams of caffeine only-ish, yeah. And also when you think of going back to the diterpenes, because itiltered the extraction is only like what? 20 seconds for a shot of espresso, so you're not having that much contact time. You know a french press you're sitting the water with the beans for like four minutes. So I think that's where that over extraction can come in and the increase in triglycerides or ldl comes in, because that there's no filter but there's also such a long contact time between the beans and the water.

Kate:

Okay, quiz time. Which brew method has the highest caffeine?

Mitchell:

Oh, I know this, it's cold brew.

Kate:

Oh, it's going to be a trick question.

Mitchell:

Yeah, because you didn't mention it right. I saw that coming. Yeah, no, the cold brew. You didn't mention it right. Yep, I saw that coming. Yeah, no, the cold brew. Obviously I mean an eight to 24-hour contact time. Even though the beans are typically much coarser, the caffeine is through the roof with cold brew.

Kate:

Yeah, a misconception or maybe a mistake that people make a lot of times with cold brew. It needs a really long extraction because we just talked about temperature and how that changes what you're extracting out of the beans. So if you don't allow those beans to soak long enough, you are going to get that sour, flat flavor. So you need like a 24 hour extraction on cold, cold brew to get the right taste.

Mitchell:

And on that note, with the flavor, I think an underestimated part of that is how long ago the beans were roasted. Just do a little quiz or do a little test on yourself. Go to Starbucks, tell me that coffee tastes good. It doesn't. I don't know how long those beans have been sitting around and overly roasted. So there's a similar taste in every place all around the world, at every starbucks. But yeah, I mean, that's a clear example of when beans are made in such quantities, the flavor oftentimes goes down and you've got to think the quality goes down too, not to mention the pesticides, right? My mom told me when I was in college and I first started drinking coffee, if there's one food, my mom, the genesis of all of this.

Mitchell:

If there's one food you buy if you can't afford to buy other things, organic coffee, because they're so sprayed with pesticides. So that's always stuck with me.

Kate:

Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about that the organic versus conventional conversation in coffee, so little known fact. When I moved to Colorado, one of my first jobs here was working at the Buena Vista Roastery. It was one of my favorite jobs of all time and of course I started as a barista. But I got a little bored and said hey, what else can I do for you? They wanted me to help them with their organic certification. So they were getting organic beans from El Salvador, from Guatemala.

Kate:

All of their beans were organic, but they were not allowed to sell them as organic because they didn't have the actual certification. That process involves going to a third-party certification body, not just the USDA, but you have to go through a third-party certification. You have to fill out so much paperwork down to. I was having to make maps of the roastery, on where the coffee was stored, how much, in what barrels, where, and then they would, once they got our application all of these maps, all of the data, where the coffee's coming from, when it's going out, they come in and inspect it. Only after all that happens can they put the organic label on it.

Kate:

So, even though the beans were organic the whole time, we were not allowed to sell them as organic until that process was completed, and it's super expensive. It will vary by state and what agency you use for that certification, but it can be upwards of $4,000 per year to maintain that certification. One thing I tell people and we've talked to patients about this is talk to the roaster, talk to the people who you're buying your coffee from. There's a good chance it will be organic, pesticide-free, have some good quality behind it, but they can't label it and sell it like that.

Mitchell:

Yeah, number one, the thing I took from that was you had a neuroscience degree and you worked at a coffee shop, which I think is very humble of you. Yeah, in a small mountain town. That's awesome. And yeah, one thing we I mean we live in a city where there's so many good small roasters where they're not roasted in high quantities, things aren't sitting on the shelves a long time. And I will ask I've talked to owners of coffee shops multiple times are these pesticide free? Well, they're not organic. I said I don't care, I didn't know. It was that much of a process. I just thought it was USDA and it was a racket. So I always said I don't care. But we have a lot of patients who were instructing to find pesticide-free coffee. If you simply advertise that the beans are pesticide-free, that's all I care about. I don't care about the certification. You know. And there there's so many places around here where, like you said, if you just ask, you'll be surprised. You know, even in our building.

Kate:

Yeah, I know I've learned a lot from Scott. Yeah, scott Garrity is the owner of Lost Coffee and he's here at Kiln at our coworking space with us and he has been such a good resource and so open to the conversations we've had about coffee and sourcing and organic, conventional and really about mold as well.

Mitchell:

Yeah, he also is. He loves it. That's why I like him is he loves the whole process. He really cares about the ethics behind the farms that the beans were grown, cares about the ethics of the people he employs here. And, on the occasion that I do, make a shot of espresso here delicious.

Kate:

It is good.

Mitchell:

Did you just use another little effect, a sound effect? Little effect, a sound effect no, no oh, I don't have headphones on right now, I just saw you push a button. I thought you did like a brunch my bad yeah, so I mean, get to know the people.

Mitchell:

If you, if you aren't shipping your beans across the country, like I am, once a month talk to the place you're going and and see if you can find a place that really focuses on the ethics, the sustainability and then the lack of pesticides in their growing methods are we gonna broach the big topic?

Mitchell:

what big topic? Mold mold, yeah, or mycotoxins. Sure you know I think a lot of mold actually gets destroyed during the roasting process. But if those beans were improperly dried or washed or grown you know I think the dry, the dry wash, where they just set it out in the sun, those beans are really prone to mold and I'm almost sure that roasting kills most of the mold. But if those beans started moldy before the rostine they can still develop mycotoxins, things like ocrotoxin A and aflatoxin. And we know that ocrotoxin is a probable or possible carcinogen. It suppresses immune responses, it can lead to immune suppression and it's most likely nephrotoxic. It's really hard on the kidneys and professionally we find a lot of people with mycotoxin-related illnesses, chronic fatigue and joint pain, and their doctor wonders if they have autoimmunity. It's just kind of this nebulous diagnosis. And when we run mycotoxin testing we oftentimes do find ocrotoxin A or aflatoxin B1 or something, and both of those can come from poor coffee, I mean. What are your thoughts?

Kate:

Right, especially in these people who this is a daily habit. It's a big lever to pull to make sure it is certified third-party tested mold-free. To pull to make sure it is certified third-party tested mold-free. So this is another conversation I had with Scott, owner of Lost Coffee, was about mold and the imports and there is FDA oversight to coffee imports so it will be inspected at the time it's introduced into the United States. Introduced into the United States.

Kate:

The testing of these batches is usually risk-based. So certain regions tend to certain regions that might be at higher risk of improper drying conditions places where there's really high humidity, like Indonesia, sumatra, india in the lowland has a really high export of coffee during their monsoon season, and then low altitude Central America, like Honduras, nicaragua. Those tend to be tested more frequently because, again, higher risk of mold growth because of the conditions, whereas there's other places with a better dry climate or better methods for drying and less risk of mold. So that would be like Ethiopia has traditional sun drying plus it's pretty dry there. Colombia, costa Rica has a really well-developed processing and culture around their coffee. It's one of their key exports. And then Kenya actually has washing stations with quality control.

Mitchell:

That's interesting how it varies so much based on the region that you get your coffee, and not only the weather conditions there, but the infrastructure set up for the quality control of that.

Kate:

For the quality control, at least until it gets into the united states and coffee is shipped green.

Mitchell:

It's technically air quote dried, but I'm pretty sure it's still about 10 percent water in a dried coffee bean before it's roasted, those green coffee beans. And if you're having those green coffee beans sitting for a long time in big bags or barrels, that's where a lot of the mold can develop. When there's all that moisture still in there. And I think I said this earlier, but roasting does kill a lot of the mold, but if there's mycotoxins already developed in there, you're still going to absorb some of them Again. If this is a daily habit, that's when it becomes so important.

Kate:

Right, it's that residual and so it's these mega suppliers. It's your Starbucks, your Dunkin' Donuts, your even McDonald's, where they have huge batches of green coffee that they're not roasting right away, whereas a lot of these small batch roasters they get pretty small shipments that they can handle and roast through it and have this constant turnover, so you're not storing the green coffee for as long.

Mitchell:

Yeah, so moral of the story don't support big business. And then, yeah, I mean it requires a lot of independent effort on the companies and that's the hard part, I think, where it's an expensive process to test constantly for these mycotoxins and these molds. The company that I use does both pesticide residues, mycotoxins and mold Again not expecting too much mold, but I'm really getting back to that mycotoxin and a mycotoxin is a toxin released from mold and we'll even see this. It's about 15% to 20% of people in America struggle at getting rid of mold once they've been exposed to it. And we have a lot of people we work with where maybe their spouse lived in the same home as them, they both got sick from a water damaged building, they repaired the house and only one of them got well and that's confusing to them.

Mitchell:

And it's this idea of the inability to get rid of these mycotoxins within the system. You essentially become a factory of secretion of these toxins. Toxins right, the big T word it's you know, everyone says the doses and the poison, well, in some things. But it's also this idea of accumulation, the cumulative exposure chronically to these types of things, if you are genetically susceptible to not getting rid of them, as well as maybe your friend or your partner. You'll you'll be the person who suffers, maybe even from brain fog or fatigue after you drink coffee similar to being in a moldy building. So let's talk about roasting roasting and temperatures of roasting yeah all right but here's my understanding of roasting temperatures.

Mitchell:

On either side of the spectrum, whether it be a really light roast or a really dark roast, there is a development of certain compounds. You know acrylamide, very common compound that's developed when starches are cooked. We see that in fried French fries, fried potatoes. We see that in all sorts of things, what we know with coffee. Acrylamide develops when we're at too low a roasting temperature and on the other side of things, when we have too high of a roasting temperature, we develop aromatic hydrocarbons, similar compounds to when you grill, you char meat too much and we know that those are carcinogenic.

Mitchell:

So I'm really interested in getting beans that are along the more medium part of the spectrum. And what I really love about purity coffee plugging them, love them is they're aware of these roasting arcs and they only play within the temperatures where you're not getting excessive acrylamide production but you're also not burning or cooking so high to get these aromatic hydrocarbons, while at the same time testing for antioxidants and polyphenols. I think that's the, that's the perfect middle ground. And they actually experiment with different arcs of roasting temperatures throughout the process and then they test them. They make one specific for liver health, certain chlorogenic acids that they can raise much higher based on the type of roasting they're doing. And all of that information is on their website, where you can see exact breakdowns of the minerals, every different type of antioxidant that's tested, and polyphenol, and it's quite interesting to see how different that can be using the same bean but just changing up the roasting style or temperature yeah, so it's not only taste, but also different health benefits for these variations in roasting temperature, which is pretty cool.

Mitchell:

Percolate on that oh my gosh, you wrote that down what what other ones do you have?

Kate:

go ahead well, that was a brood awakening, oh my gosh, when would you have used that today?

Mitchell:

acrylamide perhaps okay. Well, when you roast at certain temperatures, you develop acrylamide.

Kate:

When you roast at certain temperatures you develop acrylamide that's a brood awakening Good.

Mitchell:

I set you up and you were still delayed.

Kate:

Wait, can we talk about decaf again? Yeah, because it makes me feel kind of depresso. Okay, I'm done, all right, okay I'm done, um all right.

Mitchell:

Well, let's uh stir the pot a little bit. I'm leaving.

Kate:

You got this from here uh, I think we do want to talk a little bit about benefits or side effects of coffee. Uh, where it can be a good thing, maybe certain populations that might want to avoid coffee or caffeine as well.

Mitchell:

Yeah, I think one outside of the caffeine conversation. A lot of people do get loose stools from coffee and they think it's all the caffeine, but it's actually not. It's certain CGA's chlorogenic acids that can lead to the bowel looseness. So even those people would probably get loose bowels from a decaf.

Kate:

True? Yeah, it's the chlorogenic acid that increases the smooth muscle contraction. It can happen as soon as four minutes after consumption, after your first sip.

Mitchell:

And if you know, you know.

Kate:

If you know, you know. And what I say is those are the people who, I think, would do much better with coffee as part of their meal, or having their meal before their coffee, versus having coffee on an empty stomach and evacuating coffee well, and that do we want to talk about our coffee rules.

Mitchell:

I don't think that was what we wanted to talk about today, but you could throw that out there quick, sure we have.

Mitchell:

We have coffee rules, coffee rules time, calories and water and I would say movement okay, and keep in mind we're not working generally with people who have they're feeling great. So we're working to resuscitate people's stress responses and gut function and brain health and they're dealing with a whole myriad of conditions. So we've developed coffee rules. Not because everybody gets a cortisol spike after they drink coffee. I don't know if that's even close to true, but we do know.

Mitchell:

Especially dealing with people with a lot of anxiety, they might have those little you know sip snips right, those CYP snips or even have a COMT snip where they struggle to degrade certain catecholamines and they tend to be B vitamin deficient. And those people tend to get a lot more agitated after drinking coffee. And we even find if you get some. So something I do is I take B vitamins half an hour before I drink coffee. I've had calories, b vitamins, liquid, I've been outside, I've moved and I've been awake for at least 45 minutes. That works for me. I think that's a good general rule because we don't want you having a cigarette and a cup of coffee for breakfast and then wondering why you can't sleep at night or you don't have any energy to work out and you're just kind of stuck on this wheel.

Kate:

Yeah, so you threw out that SIP term. Sip is CYP1A2 is the enzyme that breaks down. It's a liver enzyme that breaks down caffeine and some other substances as well. But you kind of fall on this spectrum of fast or slow metabolism, so fast CYP1A2 or slow CYP1A2. The fast ones, these are the people who can drink coffee before bed and sleep like a baby, whereas the slow ones are the ones who are prone to jitters, heart palpitations. You can absolutely test your genetics for this, but this is an intuition thing. You know kind of where you fall on this spectrum. And what's interesting is the we haven't talked about the cardiovascular benefits or the brain health benefits of coffee yet, but it's kind of mixed based on your genetics. So slow metabolizers actually have an increased risk of cardiovascular disease with excessive caffeine versus fast metabolizers. Fast metabolizers actually get a benefit from it, so that's cool.

Mitchell:

I'm trying to come up with a pun here, but I didn't prepare any.

Kate:

Oh, I got one. Okay, from bean to gene.

Mitchell:

Man, I love how you said you were done and then you pulled that one out. And also, I think the state of your nervous system generally can be part of that as well. I mean, what is that? I think the half-life of caffeine is like four or five hours. Don't give me a broad range. You're going to say something like two to seven hours. I usually think it's about five hours. I want to shift from the caffeine conversation into the gut health purported benefits. What are we seeing in the literature and and in our patients?

Kate:

yeah. So we talked a little bit about the chlorogenic acids that increase smooth muscle contraction. Coffee makes you poop great. One point I wanted to make on that is if you are someone who relies on coffee to poop, there's usually something deeper going on, whether it's a motility or microbial issue. Um so good to know about yourself. But also, we don't want to rely on coffee to get things moving. There's some new research that's coming out about coffee and the microbiome, and we're seeing that these polyphenols might actually act as prebiotics to help feed the good bacteria. Of course, these are all correlation studies, so they're showing oh, this person drinks coffee and they have a wider variety of beneficial bugs. So it's not a perfect comparison, uh association, but we'll see. I'm sure there's going to be more coming out on that, and we also know it's a little bit of a Goldilocks uh Goldilocks principle here, where too much coffee can be antimicrobial.

Mitchell:

That makes sense, and even antimicrobial, in the sense that you're shitting your pants Right, like that microbiome said see ya, um, anyway, we've talked, I I think that's a good place to get into one misconception that we get. We just had at this earlier today with a patient who's pregnant. Could you share your as a mom and as someone who treats a lot of soon-to-be mothers? What's the advice you give? Because I typically step aside for this and let you have the conversation because you know so much about it and what you've been through. So what's your advice with coffee consumption during pregnancy?

Kate:

Yeah, so this conversation is actually a little bit more about caffeine. So caffeine does cross the placenta and a fetus doesn't metabolize it as efficiently. Caffeine metabolism will also change significantly during pregnancy, even more so if you're genetically susceptible. So if you're one of those CYP enzyme SNP people and you may or may not know that, not know that the current ACOG American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommendations are upper limit of 200 to 300 milligrams per day. It's that high, yeah, yeah.

Kate:

But remember the evidence is pretty poor because these are all correlation studies. We can't actually do a randomized control trial of having a pregnant woman drink coffee versus one who doesn't. So what they do is ask women did you drink coffee during your pregnancy, how much? And then associate that with different risk factors or different outcomes and the ones we're seeing with coffee or caffeine. Sorry is, women who do drink above 200 to 300 milligrams per day have an increased risk of miscarriage, low birth weight babies and there are some negative effects on fetal brain development Again, correlation studies. But my recommendation is always more conservative. So limit caffeine as much as possible, knowing this could be an outcome, generally 200 milligrams per day, which is a small cup of coffee as a maximum, but for most people I recommend trying to limit caffeine.

Mitchell:

Or 200 milligrams of caffeine for me is like a liter because of using third calf. I'm wondering mechanistically if that is because of the central nervous system vasoconstriction that happens with excessive caffeine. This is part of the reason I'm not really a big fan of people who take pre workouts that have high dose caffeine, because it seems to actually constrict cerebral blood flow in high doses. So I'm wondering if maybe the fetus can't metabolize caffeine as fast so there's constriction of cerebral vessels, I wonder, leading to potentially poorer development. Do you think that could be possible?

Kate:

I suppose it could be possible.

Mitchell:

Yeah, so if you're one of those people that takes a pre-workout and you get dizzy while you work out, how about don't take the pre-workout? See if you get better?

Kate:

I also wanted to say this is caffeine is something that I start limiting when women are trying to conceive, because it can be a hard habit to break and it is not something you want to be doing in the first few weeks of finding out you're pregnant, when you already feel like crap that's a good point all right, we're almost done here, but I want to play a little myth busting game.

Mitchell:

So I'm going to give you some one liner myths and you get to debunk them for us okay, and and just so you know, I do not have a clue what you're about to ask me. I know, but you love that this isn't a game. Yeah, I actually don't know. All right Myth number one, I'm so excited Coffee dehydrates you.

Mitchell:

Man, I tend to disagree. Coffee we know that you will lose some minerals when you drink coffee. But I said earlier, coffee is like 98% or 99% water, so I would actually say it's got to be a net neutral or a net positive, but it is a diuretic right, so that's the nuance there. So if you were just taking coffee without water, I suppose it would dehydrate you, but I'm assuming because there's so much water it's not a true dehydrator.

Kate:

What about sodium?

Mitchell:

What about sodium?

Kate:

Coffee bleeds.

Mitchell:

sodium yeah, we know that. I think it's probably an eighth or a quarter teaspoon of salt leaves the body for every cup of coffee you drink-ish.

Kate:

All right, ready for my next one.

Mitchell:

Yeah, you need to take a break from caffeine regularly well, I feel like the way you're asking it means you shouldn't, but I think you should. I do, personally. I do because of sensitization. That happens, you know, let's. What does caffeine do, right? People think it actually stimulates you. It's real mechanism is there's a certain compound called adenosine that builds up throughout the day and as adenosine binds to adenosine receptors, that leads to the perceptions of fatigue. So caffeine blocks adenosine receptor, adenosine release I think it's more of the adenosine receptor function. So you block I think it's more of the adenosine receptor function, so you block the perceptions of fatigue. As with any compound done chronically in high amounts, you can get changes in expression of these receptors. We see that with every hormone in the body. So I would I typically tell people yes, take a break. Do you like how you give me a short question and then I go on and on.

Mitchell:

Yeah, but I think it's important to know that that's what caffeine is doing it's blocking the function of adenosine and we we need adenosine to have a normal dockage onto the receptors in order to have a normal circadian rhythm.

Kate:

We already ruined this one. Dark roast is stronger than light roast.

Mitchell:

Yep, no Just kidding.

Kate:

Ooh, I don't know if you know the answer to this, but if you don't know I can answer. Latte art means it's good coffee.

Mitchell:

Yes.

Kate:

No, latte art has nothing to do with the coffee.

Mitchell:

Oh, I don't even know what you're saying. You mean, like the designs you make. You make, oh, just means you have too much time on your hands no, latte art is awesome.

Kate:

It's a really cool science of milk texture, temperature, flow dynamics. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, I recommend lance hedrick's on youtube. He's like the wizard of espresso and milk magic. He's how I learned how to do really fancy latte art and I love it.

Mitchell:

So, yeah, go with that, but I feel like you're a one-trick pony. I see the same design every day.

Kate:

No, no, no, I've been changing it up. You have yeah.

Mitchell:

You need to start sending me the pictures. I've got the leaf which I believe is called the Rosetta but I've been playing with more of a tulip, where you do the leaf base and then you do a heart on the top of it Interesting. So, latte art has to do with the milk and the pour. Yeah, okay, cool. Not the coffee, but I suppose it looks good, it tastes good, right.

Kate:

Of course, that's my main philosophy in life Aesthetic, food matters.

Mitchell:

It's actually true. You're more excited to eat something healthy if it looks vibrant and fun, says the guy who eats for function most of the time.

Kate:

We eat with our eyes. Okay, wrapping it up.

Mitchell:

I guess this is where you were hoping to talk about coffee rules.

Kate:

Yeah, some best practices for people. Do you have a daily limit of caffeine or a general limit?

Mitchell:

No, I mean, I would definitely. I don't like to get it higher than 500 milligrams, and that's very few times per month and, like I said, I'm about to do a month-ish of no caffeine. So I think you've got to judge your symptoms. Am I sleeping well? Am I waking up craving coffee? Am I more agitated? Do I find myself needing it to function? I think that's a clue that you're consuming way too much. And also there's a guy I listen to his podcast and sometimes he'll get a large dark roast at Starbucks and pour four shots of espresso in it. Number one, that's got to taste terrible. But number two, he has such tolerance built up that he's not getting the feelings, but he's definitely going to be getting high blood pressure from that. So yes, absolutely. Do you think so?

Kate:

Yeah, yeah, I think it's bio-individual, as with everything. But I think another key we kind of hinted at this with the coffee detox or the caffeine withdrawal in periods of time, I think that's a good metric for people is what happens when you skip your morning cup.

Mitchell:

That's a good metric for people is what happens when you skip your morning cup? Yeah, do you get a headache? Do you get cranky? Is it hard to function or get up? Yeah, that's a sign you have an addiction.

Kate:

You mentioned, I don't know, 45 minutes ago, making a coffee for your friend at 8 PM.

Mitchell:

It was third calf.

Kate:

Okay, okay, yeah, okay yeah and no.

Mitchell:

Generally, I think the last caffeine should probably be consumed maybe eight hours before bed. Because of that you want to have, you know, one and a half to maybe two half lives of degradation within the system. So I typically try to cut it off at least eight hours before bed. But but again, most of the coffee that I drink is really low caffeine these days because I could drink coffee at night and fall asleep. But I would still contend if I was one of those people who wore an aura ring or a whoop, which we have a lot of people that do. That's fine, but I have never worn something like that. I like to go off of how I feel, something like that. I like to go off of how I feel, my moods, my workouts, my sleep, my recovery, my brain function. If I were to dive into that with too late of caffeine, yeah, I think I fell asleep, but I'm assuming I didn't get into that true non-REM sleep. It's got to be impacted a little bit with that blocking of adenosine.

Kate:

You have your own aura about your body metrics you like these jokes I love them. Yeah, all right, coffee rules, we hinted at them. Time, calories, water or movement is apparently the fourth one. That's not in our instagram post it isn't, no.

Mitchell:

No, I mean, you know it's evolving, okay, but I would say time liquid calorie is very important before you have coffee and then, like I said, something I do is I take methylated b vitamins 30 minutes before. So I do that right, when I wake up, before I even go outside is take some B vitamins and then I'll interact with coffee.

Kate:

Okay, so time is 60 minutes. 60 to 90 minutes.

Mitchell:

Give me 45. Okay, Cause you know you listening and you roll out of bed and hit the button on the disgusting espresso and then you drink a nice cup of plastic water filled with pesticides. So just push it back to 45 minutes.

Kate:

See how you feel so, be awake for 45 minutes before having your first sip of caffeine.

Mitchell:

I mean, what do we think about? You want coffee to be a performance-enhancing drug or substance. You don't want it to be what gets you to normal baseline. If you wake yourself up normally and you're already awake and alert and then you have coffee, the function is typically much more profound for what you're going for than if you're simply just using it to agitate your system to adjust to the day.

Kate:

All right Time water.

Mitchell:

have some water before your caffeine pretty straightforward calories just stabilize that blood sugar, and also a lot of people have a blunted appetite with excessive coffee. So you'll find yourself getting stuck in this stress response and this blood sugar response because you're not eating enough. So I don't know if it's so much about making sure you have calories to set yourself up for success from a stress base, I think it's literally to make sure that you're having normal consumption of the things that are going to provide you with neurochemistry to function.

Kate:

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be a huge meal. It can be something. We generally recommend, something protein forward. So a a protein shake, a couple of hard-boiled eggs or eggs, any style.

Mitchell:

Meat sticks uh yeah, plenty to choose from yeah, and I I typically just do a protein shake with some fiber in it. You know, about 10 minutes after I take my b vitamins and then come back inside after the walk and that'll be. That'll fulfill all the rules for me cool.

Kate:

All right takeaways coffee is awesome.

Mitchell:

Preparation matters big source of potential mycotoxins, molds or pesticides. It does not overly dehydrate you, but it is a diuretic. Sip snips.

Kate:

And Kate is full of puns. Okay, I know it's a latte to think about, but my challenge for you is delay your coffee by an hour, see how you feel and evaluate your brew methods and bean sourcing. I will put all of our recommendations and favorite products in the show notes. Have a great day, and that's a wrap for this episode of Facilitated. If you enjoyed it, hit subscribe because, let's be honest, you'll forget otherwise. And if you really loved it, please leave us a review. Not only does it make Mitchell feel warm and fuzzy inside, but it also helps more people find functional medicine without falling into a Google rabbit hole. For more about what we do at the facility, check out our website, wwwthefacilitydenvercom. You can also follow us on Instagram at the facility Denver for extra tips behind the scenes, fun and updates on new episodes. Thanks for listening. Now go facilitate your own health and we'll see you next time.